Love Fort Wayne Podcast
The Love Fort Wayne podcast amplifies the stories of everyday people who are loving and leading in Northeast Indiana to spark imagination, root inspiration, and ignite transformation.
Love Fort Wayne Podcast
Heartbeats of Fort Wayne | Loving Our Pastors with Dr. Dave Tilma and Dr. Luther Whitfield
Have you ever wondered what beats at the very heart of Fort Wayne? Our latest Love Fort Wayne podcast episode brings forth an intimate conversation with two distinguished pastors, Dr. Dave Tilma and Dr. Luther Whitfield. Their narrative weaves through the city's spiritual climate, drawing on Dr. Tilma's recent move to the bustling urban culture and Dr. Whitfield's lifelong roots that run deep within the community's soil. Their shared passion for Fort Wayne and its residents shines as they recount the joys and challenges of their ministries and the impact of their family legacies.
Fort Wayne is not just a city; it's a community rich in diversity and spirit, where churches stand as cornerstones of hope and engagement. This episode delves into the Love Fort Wayne initiative, a beacon of unity in the COVID-19 storm, rallying the Christian community to rise to the economic and social challenges. Our dialogue with Dr. Tilma and Dr. Whitfield reveals how local churches are transcending traditional roles, fostering a culture of transparent leadership and becoming sanctuaries of spiritual healing. They share inspiring stories of how living missionally isn't confined within church walls—it's a call to action in all areas of life.
But what of those tasked with the heavy mantle of spiritual leadership? We turn a reflective eye on the emotional toll it takes on pastors like our guests and discuss the critical importance of self-care, rest, and Sabbath. They open up about their personal journeys toward finding balance, their strategies for recharging, and the strength they draw from a network of supportive peers. This introspective chapter is a heartfelt reminder that even the shepherds need a sanctuary, and in Fort Wayne, they find it by lifting each other up. Join us as we share in a dialogue that offers a rare glimpse into the lives of those leading our spiritual communities.
We are also delighted to introduce Eric Hall, who contributed a captivating and inaugural short midway through the discussion. The episode not only provides substantial content but also dives into the meaningful topic of expressing love for our pastors in Fort Wayne. Eric's contribution adds a valuable perspective, making this podcast a well-rounded and enriching experience for listeners seeking both depth and diversity in their content consumption.
Welcome to season four of the Love Fort Wayne podcast. The Love Fort Wayne podcast amplifies the stories of everyday people who are loving and leading in northeast Indiana to spark imagination, root inspiration and ignite transformation in our community and beyond. At Love Fort Wayne, we believe the pillars of a flourishing community are its leaders, pastors, schools, families and prayer. And in season four, we're excited to learn from and be encouraged by people who not only lead but love our city in these areas each day Before we die, then we want to say thank you to our partners at Remedy Live, dream On Studios, our financial brotherhood mutual and shepherd family auto group for making the podcast possible. Well, welcome everybody to the February episode of the Love Fort Wayne podcast. I'm excited about the opportunity that we have here this month to chat with a couple of our local pastors here in Fort Wayne. This is Jeff King. I'm joined by Mitch Cruz.
Speaker 2:Mitch how you doing. I'm great. How are you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm doing good. Man. Are you surviving the cold? I want it to be over, mitch. Are you a hat guy in the wintertime oh yes, yeah. I learned that the hard way when my hair started leaving.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as bald people, we need to be hat people in the wintertime, but we digress. We're excited because we got Dr Dave Tillman, lead pastor at Black Hawk Ministries, and Dr Luther Whitfield, senior pastor at New Covenant Worship Center. Thank you guys for being here with us today. That was good to be with you. Yeah, we're excited. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm excited, mitch, because I've got the opportunity to meet Dave here in the fall when you made your transition in Fort Wayne and we're going to talk about that a little bit. So it's been good just to connect with you a little bit. So I'm excited to connect more in dialogue. And then Luther has known me since I've been in diaper.
Speaker 1:It's probably a long time and so connected to my family. So this is just two guys that I'm really excited that we get the opportunity to chat with, and so can we just start. Dave, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey here to Fort Wayne, about your family, just whatever's on your heart?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Mary, my high school sweetheart, Rebecca. We have four children. We're at that phase where we're beginning to launch them one by one. We launched our first she's a freshman at Moody and then at Blackhawk we have Blackhawk Christian School, so we've got a junior freshman and a seventh grader, all at Blackhawk Christian. Awesome season of life.
Speaker 4:And my wife and I both grew up in rural areas but have spent most of our ministry time in large cities and urban areas. And so, as we kind of thought about this next season and the next chapter, we kind of you know, everybody has a wish list and you know, is there a way for us to have rural and city, or that doesn't make a lot of sense.
Speaker 4:And then, as we started exploring Fort Wayne, we went oh, there's a little bit of country, there's a little bit of city, there's a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and our transition has been fantastic. We've loved, we've fallen in love with Fort Wayne and we're excited to be here. We tell people we bought her forever home and we're in so love us.
Speaker 1:Love that I love that yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:It's good. Um, grew, of course, grew up here in Fort Wayne, lived in Fort Wayne all my life, besides, when I went to school in Chicago, like Dave, married my high school sweetheart and we've been together for 40 years. This year, three kids, tiffany, renata and Michael. I praise the Lord, empty nesters.
Speaker 1:I'm chasing.
Speaker 2:I'm chasing. Yeah, that's right brother.
Speaker 3:So, they are doing well. Tiffany has her family, her and her husband, who's a principal at Jefferson Middle School. Nick is, they're here in Fort Wayne with their two kids, and then Michael is in in Annapolis with his son, and Renata, my little renegade, is all the way in Houston and they're doing well and so, uh, we're loving it. I didn't know how much my wife would love grandkids If, uh, knowing that earlier, I would have rented some.
Speaker 3:Um but um, but it it's great Um, we together, her and I, uh, we started new covenant 19 years ago, uh, in our basement with six families and the Lord has blessed the ministry uh, uh, tremendously and we're grateful. I feel like Dave again, just listening to a story is, I think, where we're located, where we get a piece of a little bit of rural because we're just up the road, and then, of course, you were up the road to urban because we're right there, you know, close to Paul Dean and has in castle and the whole deal. So you do, you get a mixture of Little bit of this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think if God could have placed anything on the map boom, that's where he wanted us and we're excited about it. So yeah, it's been good. It's been good and welcome.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'm assuming you left for it, wayne, because you've been here for a while. Yes, the Lord brought me back and have no other choice. You know.
Speaker 3:But you know some ministries open in Hawaii.
Speaker 4:I've been praying for that surfing ministry, but God is not open.
Speaker 3:I'm still waiting for that. Wait on the Lord, that's too funny.
Speaker 1:That's too funny. Yeah, I haven't heard that call either. So I man again excited to have you guys here. I think one of the first things I wanted to ask you both is just these, these two beautiful unique perspectives. Been here your whole life, pastor Luther, pastor Dave, you're new to the community but you guys you love it here and, like, as you look at Fort Wayne, I just wanted to ask, like, what is the spiritual temperature from your unique perspectives of what God is doing in Fort Wayne? Because I think where I sit at I get to see what he's doing in churches and in youth groups and in all these beautiful micro movements of the spirit in our community and towards this macro thing of the church. Like, what is your guys unique perspective of the city of Fort Wayne and what God's doing here?
Speaker 4:I mean, I'm six months in. I don't know if I have much of a perspective. I was actually like I'm looking for it here you have to say on that like you know, shed some light, but you know, I think, six months in, it's, it's. That's really really. I have a very limited and respectable time and you know where I'm at geographically and things like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'll jump in. Yeah, yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 1:I think it's exciting.
Speaker 3:It's, you know, I think it's a little bit of a mixture. The excitement for me is kind of like the movement that we're seeing with love Fort Wayne, the fact that through this process, here's this organization that's bringing the body of Christ together. Now that's excites me because I think the opportunity when churches can come together at a time when coming out of COVID and dealing with laws for so many people out of COVID, dealing with the financial stress, dealing with all that for the body Christ to come together, to come alongside each other and support each other, that's huge to me, because I think the people are looking for what is the church doing? Yeah, you know how is the church answering some of the problems that they're facing, and so it's not just this independent church over here, but it really is the body of Christ trying to find a way to come together. And the fact that we are working towards that excites me. I think our community, I think the world is looking for that.
Speaker 3:Personally, in that regard, and then on a personal level, I'm excited to see that, you know, this is not just happening within, you know, love Fort Wayne, but I think it's happening within our black communities. That's right, and with the churches in that area, from redemption, new covenant, you know, fellowship, all the I mean it's coming outside of our comfort zone. It's easy to get lost in our comfort zone and say that's their problem over there or that's their problem out there, but it is. I think this Holy Spirit is stirring our hearts up that we can no longer sit on the sideline. But the church has to engage in what is going on in the lives of our people as well as in the lives of our community, if we truly are going to make Fort Wayne a lovable city. It's good, yeah, it's good.
Speaker 2:In your years in ministry, have either one of you seen a difference in what the culture is seeking from the church, if they're seeking it at all? It's a good question.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's good, yeah, I think more for me. Um, I need this. I think there's this hunger for transparency. I think people want to. They're looking, you know, to be, you know the for the people to be real. That's not the pastor up there on the, the podium or on the platform who's never made a mistake, never had any issues marriage is solid and strong but someone that they can connect to. That's what's the beauty about Christ, because they come to be with us and experience what we went through, but sin not.
Speaker 3:And I think that's what the people are looking for. They're looking for a church that's tangible, relevant and real, that they can put their hands to. There's people who want to know how can I be used, how can I make a difference, and I think the church presents that opportunity where we could be the catalysts, the kind of doing of which that should be happening and so. But we can't do that if we're some island off to ourselves. We have to engage. It is important for us to engage and get to know each other, and so that cause how can I help Black Hawk if I don't know Black Hawk? Or how can Black Hawk help New Covenant if they don't know New Covenant? And so it calls for us to engage, and again, that's just simply modeling Christ.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you see it. Yeah, proximity brings about relationship Absolutely. And you were asking has that changed? I don't know if what people are looking for from the church has changed, or I've changed, or the church has changed.
Speaker 3:I don't know the intersection of those.
Speaker 4:But what comes to my mind is I think when I first began in ministry, it probably was a little bit more that people were showing up looking for answers, and I think it's changed to what you were saying, pastor Luther. People are looking for us to show our work. Not okay, that's the answer, but show me how you got there, show me pull back the curtain. Let me into the nitty gritty of what your marriage looks like, what's the challenge in parenting?
Speaker 4:And obviously we have to be appropriate from pulpits or different situations, but people are hungry for we call it authenticity, but it's the grittiness of the human experience that everybody knows. We're all human, we all have the grittiness of life. Why is it so clean and perfect when I go to church? Yeah, yeah, and I think in different churches have embraced that in different ways, but I think that's where culture is and is going. I don't think we're pulling back from that and I think the church, in various ways we're catching up or we're ahead or we're right where we need to be in, whatever that looks like.
Speaker 3:I remind our church all the time that we are a hospital full of sick folks. You know we're in a hospital and my job is to help people to get better. We're a hospital, not a hospice, not so that you can rest in your issues and your resume but to move us forward, so that we can be made whole, and I think that's what people are looking for.
Speaker 3:They're looking for answers, they want to be made whole. How do we get there? And so I just think the more for me that I can be real with people, the more I make myself available for folk and then also getting outside of the walls of the church, I think that helps a great deal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how do you guys, in your opinion, how do we model that for our congregants? The mission on mindset? Like I'm living my life missionally in my workspace in front of my children, of course with my approximate neighbor, but also the neighbor that is in my approximate neighbor. He or she is my neighbor because we work out at the same place, we frequent the same spaces. It's again I think there's a yearning for that. But what's the encouragement for us as believers, outside of those church walls, to live that mission away every day?
Speaker 3:You know what?
Speaker 3:That's easier than said than done, Because there's so many pools that comes on us and I think for me, number one is making sure that I'm making time for the word, because my job is to proclaim the word and administer to our people. Making sure that I'm spending that quality time with my mate, with my family, because that's my first ministry. I can lose New Covenant, still have my ministry, but I've lost my family, I've lost my ministry. So that's vital for me. But then also, not just pastoring New Covenant, but wanting to help pastor the community, Because there's a lot of folks within that community who may not have a church or a pastor, and so it is Pastor Luther who's sitting down at the coffee shop, when we clearly got one at the church. But I also want to be in the coffee shop so I can hear what's going on in the community and let them have the opportunity to ask a question or to engage or to see One of the things that I remember so well and I can recall the day that St Mary's Catholic Church burned down.
Speaker 3:I can recall that I was leaving my office from YFC, going home to go pick up my kids from school, st Paul's, I saw the lightning hit, the steeple. I saw the steeple catch fire. I remember parking on Jefferson C Pharmacy parking lot and watching this thing fall. But it wasn't just the devastation of seeing this beautiful church fall down, it's what I saw following that. It was the community that wept, literally wept, I'm telling you. They wept, dave, like it was a family member. I remember that. I remember because I was one of them, because I grew up on Douglas Street. I had to go with them and people were still in bricks taking a brick from the stuff that had fallen down.
Speaker 3:I was one of them who took a brick, and the reason being is because St Paul, st Mary's, brought so much to that community From the food bank to Matthew 25, it held dances so the kids could get off the street. The priests walked the neighborhood. That's how I became a student at St Mary's Catholic School, because it was no longer this physical structure downtown but it was a part of our neighborhood and it became a family member, and so when it fell down, it was like the family member had fallen down and have died and so we wasn't gonna let that happen. And I just really from that story. It just hits me so much because I don't want us to be the church that the people look on the southeast side of town and say, well, that's that big church in the neighborhood. Because my question is always who's gonna cry for us if something should happen to us? I want people to be touched and I want people to be real. We're married to the message, but I date the methodology.
Speaker 4:Things change. You know, as you're talking, you're talking about that picture and there's the physical aspect of the building and the physical geography and landscape of churches in the city, but there's also the spiritual connection and the spiritual landscape of Fort Wayne in the beautiful thing that you're I'm picturing. Yeah, you're picking up a brick, but it's the interconnectedness between that ministry, how it affected you, your ministry, and that it's not just one church, it's the collective church the church of Jesus in any given city that you know.
Speaker 4:And how do we take those steps and I've seen some of that already here in the city of how do we collectively take responsibility to show love to our city, not just from your church or my church, it's his church. But I'm just picturing that brick. It wasn't just a physical brick, it's a spiritual brick.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3:And it really is the beauty of this and the beauty of love for Fort Wayne and its mission or work that it's doing and attempting to do to bring the body of Christ together, to work together, to have that kind of impact. But also it is bringing not only with the church the educational aspect of it, the business aspect of it, all those things that you know the body needs, you know to sustain itself. And so I mean that's the beauty of this city. I love Fort Wayne, I just do. The Lord couldn't put me no place better than where he got me. And I love Fort Wayne.
Speaker 3:I grew up here in Fort Wayne and I just have always wanted to see what could happen if the body of Christ came together. What kind of real impact can we make? And I love it because, again, I grew up and went to private school in my life I had black friends, white friends, hispanic friends, and then I'm so grateful that, you know, when the Lord called me to do ministry, it wasn't. I was assistant pastor, probably one of the most powerful black churches you know in the community. I was assistant pastor with pastor Tene Jordan, served at Raider Progressive, loved it. But when the Lord called me out. It just wasn't at a black church. You know, it was enough to say, hey, you was gonna pass the black folks. But then, when he said you gonna pass these white folks, and then, on top of that, some.
Speaker 3:Hispanic folks. I'm going like nah you asking too much. But, I love it because I do. I get the privilege every Sunday morning of just getting a taste of what happens going on.
Speaker 1:It's like heaven.
Speaker 3:I love it I love it, I love it and I'm excited to see what God has in store for us in 2024.
Speaker 2:Yeah, your picture of the brick makes me think of what Peter said about Jesus, the living cornerstone and how each one of us. Are living stones connected, measured, aligned, built with the cornerstone?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think that's the beauty of that, because, again, the fact to be connected to you and the friendships that I've had with Black Hawk and with Kelly and with Kevin, and getting the pleasure of meeting with you all that is because of the work of Love for Wank. You're bringing folk together to see how we can work together to make a difference and impact and reflect Christ.
Speaker 1:You know where it says. We know that it's the dividing walls of hostility have been torn down among us. I've often said and probably got told not to say it a couple of different times like we do a really good job of trying to build the dividing walls of hostility back up among us as the church I mean is there a word of well?
Speaker 1:first is, where are there walls of hostility among the church that keep us from doing our part of seeding and watering in our community, in our context as the church? Because I fully believe, pastors, that, like the church, has been called in this season to play our part in the transformative work of Jesus and for Wank. But there are just awesome hard things that we can't shake in our human nature, Like what are some of those things that keep us divided even though by the blood of Jesus we're not?
Speaker 4:Yeah, what do you?
Speaker 1:think.
Speaker 4:Well, I'm new to Fort Wayne so I don't know the spiritual landscape in that as much. But I think even when you look, there's proximity issues and specifically I still get lost in Fort Wayne.
Speaker 4:So forgive me but there are things that structurally keep people apart. So there's the way that neighborhoods get built, the way that mortgages were given, the way that all that happens has, over decades, built up those and continues to keep those dividing those walls of hostility in place. And so we're fighting against something that isn't just like hey, we gotta solve this once. Oh, we're done. There's a constant pulling down. That would have to happen, that's just. I spent I just came from Milwaukee was part of a multi-ethnic church and ministry. I can relate to when you're pastoring your own culture, let alone one other, and then it just breaks out into something different and there's challenges there. But there's still challenges in whatever your geography is to make that happen, and I've seen some of that here in Fort Wayne of how the city is laid out. And again, I don't know all my roads yet, but I think that exists here in America, in whatever city it is. That's right, yeah.
Speaker 3:And I agree. I think proximity, I think you're dealing, I mean people wrestle with culture and, in style, the whole gamut. I mean just again how in the past, how our city has taken care of the various quadrants. Southeast quadrant has been a neglected quadrant for a long period of time and it happened to be the largest quadrant with the majority of folks on it. So I mean you think about it. I live southwest now. There are restaurants up and down my street, there are sidewalks up and down my street, there are all those things that we just take for granted.
Speaker 3:But I can remember when we first built over there, there was a guy from an apartment complex that met me on the parking lot of our church and the people were there and he was saying where's the pastor? They said, well, he's just pulling up. I pulled up because we were going to take a walk through the new structure and here's a guy in a wheelchair. And what is he asking for? He's not asking for money, he's not asking for food. He simply says, since you guys are coming, can you give us a sidewalk? I mean really a sidewalk. And so because here in the wintertime these folks are trying to get to a grocery store In a food desert that a grocery store don't even have. What I have at my grocery store it's all pasteurized stuff. And he's saying, listen, even if I get there, I got to go through slush and cars and everything. If you guys are here, can you help us get a sidewalk?
Speaker 4:Now come on.
Speaker 3:I came to preach the gospel. I came to see souls one. But now I'm playing the sixth song on the city's engineering team to bring a sidewalk.
Speaker 4:But the church has to, because love looks different.
Speaker 3:Because love looks different in different parts of our community and sometimes some folks will never understand that, will never comprehend that. Some folks it's easier to say, well, if they get off their butt and do something and never understand the makeup of it because you've never engaged, yeah, there you go. Yeah, and the enemy will continue to pile that on as if no one cares, the church doesn't care, People don't care, and he'll keep us divided like that. That's right.
Speaker 3:And I think for me, even with our preschool. I want our kids to experience something different. You know, I love it when Taylor University or Huntington or Indiana Wesleyan comes to visit. It is so funny when they come to a worship service because the moment they walk through the door they experience something different. Right, you know, and I love that because you know that's that's our God is just so big you cannot put them in the box.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I always think about it like this you guys, his two stories and your, your answer so rich was, I think, about how it says Jesus himself walk through all the towns and he walked through the towns.
Speaker 1:The passage right after that is then he sent the 12 to go and it's like how can you know it? I, the Lord, walked through and he saw it himself before he pointed at other people, his disciples, to say hey, you go, and you go and do this, take nothing with you, but like he did it first. And I think that that perspective of us going it's OK for us to go and see the things that we don't always see to, to study and research what another church or another parachurch, another organization or outreach is doing, what's their call, what mantle God has given them, what's their denominational history and background, what if they again, what if they've been called to? It broadens our perspective to see that the thing that again, that ties us together is so much stronger than the thing that separates us in the places that we live, we work and we play.
Speaker 1:But it is that very in perspective of, I'm going to make the choice to go into those spaces and places in C and then B, with others in it, and I think that's really huge.
Speaker 4:Yeah, god goes first, yeah, but then he wants us to go first as well. That's right.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And then continue on. Yeah, you know, as you were talking about that kind of the different pieces that come together, I think it's Tim Keller who talks about a gospel ecosystem. Yeah, yeah, you know the different pieces. It's not just different churches but the different nonprofits. Yep, you know different. You know universities, education, things, all that goes into that. And one of the unique things that I have experienced is coming here to Fort Wayne. I should say unique. I've been to a global leadership summit before, but when I came to the global leadership summit in Fort Wayne, it had a different texture, it had a different feel.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And here I am. I'm sitting next to a whole group from Pizza Hut and in Vera Bradley and, you know, brotherhood Mutual, and you know, then there's the, you know, the leadership development group from, I think, youth for Christ or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, right where you're sitting, yeah.
Speaker 4:So there's something unique where it takes more than just the church right. It takes the believers, the followers of Jesus in any geographic area, in their unique lanes of business or nonprofit or church or whatever it is, and so I was sitting there going. It's happening here.
Speaker 4:There's something happening here that you know I'm walking in 20 years late you know, or whatever it is you know, but it's but being being getting to see some of that happening that the church isn't alone, yeah, and there's something. There is something happening and that encouraged me and you know, obviously love Fort Wayne and connection to the summit and some of that. You know, the main networking things I've been to are to love Fort Wayne, things getting to meet other pastors in Fort.
Speaker 3:Wayne.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I'm, you know, I'm kind of just showing up and boom, here it is. That helps me. You talk about going first and learning that. That helps me do that right. It helps me make those connections that might take a lot longer. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Some other ways. What would you say to someone who's listening and they may watch a sermon online once a month or something like that, but they're not part of a local church body? What would you say to them to get them to consider taking that first step? That's good.
Speaker 3:Taking that first step. Wow, you know I, I know for me, what took that first made me take that first step. Rather, it wasn't the fact that I went to private school all my life, it wasn't the fact that I sat in a plethora of religion, classes and everything, and then the church. What made me took that first step was my brother, because I knew about God. It just didn't have a relationship with them. Study about God just didn't have a relationship with them. But when I saw what God did in his life and how God set him free, it made me envious. I wanted some of that. I really did. I wanted some of that because he found something that I did not have and he found contentment and peace and in everything. I tell this story to our church in short testimony. I remember coming home from Chicago, from college and everything, and I'm thinking I'm going to party. Man, I brought some good smoke back home, I'm ready to throw down.
Speaker 3:And I remember throwing it down to him and say, hey, man, let's party. And he tossed it to the side and said I don't do that no more. And I'm thinking well, he must have got something better. What do you got better than what I'm saying? Well, he did have something better, and it made me follow him. So I could just get a taste of that, and it was my brother who led me to the Lord.
Speaker 4:It was my brother.
Speaker 3:I am because of him. I really did so. I think the thing of it is that I hope I can live in such a way that it creates a hunger for someone else to come to know Christ. You know I'm not perfect, I'm not claiming to be, but I want there to be enough of God in me and on me. As somebody says hey, I want some of that, and that causes me to have to engage and come out of my place of hiding and comfort. It's good man.
Speaker 4:You know, I don't know if anybody's listening to this and going oh yeah, this is what's gonna spark me into church. But I think it goes back to your earlier question about how do we live on mission, how do we model that? Just as you're telling that story, this is how we find Jesus is. Someone introduces us right In some way, shape or form. There's this connection. We see real life change. You know, all of a sudden we're tasting the, as the Lord says, taste and see that I'm good.
Speaker 3:And we see we kind of get a little bit of that from somebody else's life.
Speaker 4:And then the problem then is when we're all hunkered down and we're not out interacting with, in living in a way that the world can experience that, and if all we're doing is going to church on Sunday, you know, go into a Wednesday service or a small group or whatever it looks like, and that's our only connections, then there's not gonna be, you know, unless it's a family member, like a brother, there has to be ways that we're intentionally going. So it goes back to Jesus went first and then he sent them.
Speaker 4:And it goes back to that living on mission. How do we get sent? How do we interact? You know, I think everybody who comes to church needs a friend and a responsibility, and if you don't have both, you don't stick around for very long. That's true. Yeah, that's right. And sometimes you come with a built in friend and then there's gotta be a way that we as the church get people involved and have a meaningful way that they can be involved, because people want those kind of connections that go beyond just coming and sitting in a chair or pew. You know, it goes back to what we were talking about at the beginning of. There's this grittiness of life. What's that? If Jesus is really gonna interact with this, what does that look like? Like in your brother's life? Well, if you're not doing this, what are you doing?
Speaker 4:That's right, that's right and whatever that is, if that's you know, tell me about that. And people, that's the same question. Everybody's asking what are you doing to cope? Yeah, Because I'm all anxious or I'm in the middle of depression. You're not.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you keep talking about this Jesus thing?
Speaker 4:What's that about? But there has to be proximity to build that relationship, and that as well.
Speaker 2:I like that friend and responsibility concept because, it'd be like going to the evenings pick up basketball game and never play in. Yeah, you know, in the church everybody plays.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right, yeah yeah, and I think you guys hit on this study, this result of the Surgeon General study. I think we've maybe all heard it in 2003, the 2023, my goodness, 2023, the Surgeon General said that what isolation was the epidemic of our day and culture. And so if it's the church, the community is supposed to be a combative of the isolation that we feel. But then as we go and live missionally, then we're on action against the isolation that other people might feel that are outside of the church. So it's an in the walls we can be that source of family and community that we need to combat isolation, but then outside of the walls, we're also the example of combating isolation because we are in with neighbors and with people in our community as well.
Speaker 2:I mean there's a spiritual isolation, Like you can be the most successful person on the planet and you get really good at isolating yourself from being vulnerable.
Speaker 1:That's right. That's right. And so as I talk about isolation, I wanna pivot just the conversation. We've had this really rich conversation about the church and our role that we play as believers and you guys are leading churches toward that direction. I wanna ask you about you a little bit, and specifically you might say I can't talk about what other guys and gals that are leading in ministry, how they feel or what they need, but I think I've worked inside the local churches and now outside and outside external ministry, the weight of leadership for our pastoral leaders. Not many know actually what that feels like and I think sometimes folks that lead in business or they have a weight and they do, and in marketplace they do. But there's also a way and a stress and a heart of leading in ministry. What are some of the heart that you feel or that you felt serving in ministry? And then the second half of that is how do you find rest, Rest for yourself, for your families, rest for your souls?
Speaker 4:After years in ministry. For me it's just rhythm and there's some nuance of that. It's when I take vacation, carving out some time for study break. But the simple one for me is my Sabbath. My day of rest is Friday, and fighting for that, you'd think it gets easier, but it doesn't.
Speaker 4:And I'm not sure what happens there, but that's the front line for me every week and if I have a season where that's consistently in place and protected, I feel like that's a good rhythm. I have that foundational piece. I mean, I've still got kids in the house, I'm still aspiring to empty nesting. So there's a lot of competing challenges and then kind of I can't remember exactly how you phrased it but what's the heavy part of the load? I think leadership is leadership, right.
Speaker 4:You're leading in corporate business, world government, nonprofit, church. There's all the leadership stressors. I think what's unique sometimes about ministry is there's this the leadership challenges, and then the emotional drain or challenges that come with some of the hard lifting of ministry right.
Speaker 4:It's not just leadership, it's counseling and biblical guidance and some of the relational things, and especially when you're doing life with people long term, and those can weigh heavier and take more out. And then, as a pastor, I think it's hard to be aware sometimes when the emotional drain like we're doing fine on the leadership level and for me it's the emotional, I don't have an emotional gas gauge sometimes yeah, man, and I'm doing all right, everything's up to the right, but my emotional tank is actually empty and I'm dry. So keeping an eye on that and cultivating more of an awareness, and then part of that too is when. Then when we burn out and break and we run ourselves emotionally dry, like I think sometimes being a pastor in that situation is lonely. Yeah, you know where do we turn. You know where does a pastor turn when he needs a pastor. And I think being intentional about building those sort of things in your life and that sort of stuff, it's good, yeah, man, it's good.
Speaker 3:I would echo every sentiment my brother just shared.
Speaker 3:I think for me and I agree with you it is I call it my balcony time that I can just get into another place where it's just me just taking a look over everything and just being alone in that and I need that so much and I agree, I think it is. It's the emotional strain on you, particularly when you're in the urban area that we're in and there's just, you know, there's just so many needs there that you come, because in the urban context, and I feel it for a lot of my brothers who came out of the COVID, the pandemic, I feel it with them because, again, you know, for some it is the lack of resources, it's the stress with that, it's the stress of the number of folks that have dealt with loss, it is the fact that you are already wearing multiple hats as it is and all this stuff is just compounding on you, and so, you know, and then for some it has really been the fact that even though we're in post, folks still haven't made it back, you know. And so there's a whole new transition that has taken place for some brothers. They have literally had to shut down and go back to work, you know, and there's, you can probably come on the hand, the number of black urban pastors that are full time. Others have literally gone back to work and so now they are bivocational in that extent, and so, you know, for me I praise God that at least I get to stay focused in what I'm doing.
Speaker 3:But you do carry a lot, you know of that, and so the time that I get to just get away so I can, so I don't crack up under the pressure, is huge to me. We just made more agents recently took a vacation and I didn't realize how bad I needed it. I really didn't, how bad I really needed. And then I think the other thing that keeps me stable is the fact that I'm not in this alone, that there are people I can go to and have honest conversation with, you know, and they're not so concerned about my itinerary and my speaking engagements or how many people are coming. It's the, it's the brother who sits down and says hey, tell me about your family, hey, tell me how you're doing.
Speaker 3:You know is that accountability person, that individual who you allow them to come into your life and ask the difficult questions, and I need that more than ever in this endeavor. I need that. I need that person that I can get with and say I don't understand that, help me to process this. It don't make sense to me in that regard and I think that was the beauty really. It was the beauty of the relationship with Kelly. It was the beauty of the relationship with Kevin. It was the beauty of the relationship with the Rick Hawks. It was the beauty of the relationship with the Larry Lance. It was all those kinds of relationships that you sit down and you really could say, if you know, I got wife open by church. I don't understand.
Speaker 4:Do you help me to process that?
Speaker 3:You know, or it was by Subursa, it was by Subursa. It was Kelly saying, hey, listen, I don't understand this. Help me out with that. It is the fact that I can sit down with someone and I can take the collar off.
Speaker 2:And I can be real, and if somebody's just watching online on Sunday morning, they're missing all that they don't get any of that.
Speaker 3:They don't get none of that. No, no, and unfortunately in many of our churches today we are the best facade wares and anything, because we come in dressed up with this facade of having it all together. When I have to remind people we are in a hospital, it's OK to come in with your issues and your wounds and everything. It's OK, he says, cast your cares upon me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I just want to say I appreciate, even before we close, I appreciate you guys sharing what you just did in this last segment, because I just think many folks nationwide, globally, see our pastors, the leaders in our ministry settings, as key pillars to our communities, where we live, our cities, our towns, and it's easy to pedestal that man or that woman beyond human status. So for you all to share, listen, I need my time and I got to fight for it and I fight for it because I need to be poured into. I need my spouse, my wife, with me to walk beside me in special time with her alone, or with a confidant or a counselor or a friend or men that sit in the same seat as I do at a different church and congregation that I know. I've built context of trust with them so that we can have relationship for you to share. That leadership is leadership everywhere. So there's people issues, there's emotional issues.
Speaker 1:I think that it's great for those of us who are tuning in and listening to you to go yeah, these men and these women that are ministry leaders, that our pastors are pillars to the community, but they need rest, they need retreat, they need counsel, they need community as they lead in their calling the same way that I do.
Speaker 1:I just think it gives a valuable perspective on the beauties of a pillars of a flourishing community. But the men and women that put their pants on every single day, like they do as they tune in. And so thank you for your time. Gentlemen, you, pastors, just sharing a little bit about your heart for our city, calling the church to be the church that we're called to be in our communities and in our context, and again, just opening up the door a little bit for folks to see who you are and the needs of our pastors, because I can say amen to some of those things. When I was serving in the church, I'm like if I don't step away, I'm gonna lose all of my empathy for caring for these people that I've called on.
Speaker 2:I don't even care.
Speaker 1:I need pulling back the veil for us to see. That is huge, and so God, may he just bless you and keep you and your families, your wives, as you continue to do the work that he's called you to do here in our city. So thanks for being with us everybody, Thank you. Thank you for tuning in. We really hope that you've enjoyed this episode. If we encourage you to invite other people to tune into this episode and again I pray that it's been an encouragement for you and I think my last take is this is pray for your pastors, pray for those folks that are leading you every single day within your congregation and context. We'll tune in with you next time at the Love Fort Wayne podcast.
Speaker 2:Thanks again for joining us today. Join us next time, as we hear from leaders that don't just lead but love our city.
