Geoff King: 0:02

We're excited to launch season three of the love Fort Wayne podcast. The love Fort Wayne podcast connects to stories of leadership happening in northeast Indiana to imagine inspire and ignite transformation in leaders 20 to 25 minutes at a time. I'm Geoff King, CEO and Executive Director of love Fort Wayne. At love Fort Wayne, we know that the pillars of a flourishing community are at schools, its leaders, churches, and families. Join us as we learn from leaders across the region on how to not just lead but love our city. Welcome everybody to another episode, I'm looking forward to this episode's gonna be a great episode of the love Fort Wayne leadership podcast I have with me Well, first, I am Geoff King, the CEO of love Fort Wayne. I'm here with my friend, Mitch Cruz, a board member here at Love Fort Wayne and a lover of pastors and lover of our community. And I'm excited because we have two men that I respect here and that I call friends. Ryan Cochran is here and Pastor Anthony Payton is here and they are servant leaders, pastors within our community. And that's what this episode is truly all about as we spend 25 to 30 minutes, hearing from leaders from many different sectors within our community. That's what this podcast is all about. So I'm excited to hear from them as we help you shape your leadership journey as you tune in. So welcome in. Thank you for being here. Yeah, we appreciate you joining us here today. And so I'm gonna let you introduce yourselves. Mitch does a really good job of putting me on the spot and hyping me up and so I gotta. I have to get better at that with with my friends that come in and join us. But I want you just to take a little bit of time to introduce yourself. So those folks who are tuning in to those folks who are are listening, give us a little bit of history of who you are and where you serve and how the Lord has brought you to this moment today.

Ryan Cochran: 2:13

Okay. Yeah, I'm the lead pastor at Broadway Christian Church, downtown Fort Wayne. I've been in that role for almost 10 years. We moved here. My wife and I are originally from Indiana. But we moved here from Vancouver, British Columbia. We lived there for nine years. My wife attended graduate school there and I was called to a church called Ebenezer Baptist Church in Vancouver, British Columbia. I was there for nine years. And 2013 came back home to Indiana, when we received the call from Broadway Christian church to come. My wife is Katie, we have four kids, fourteen, twelve, ten and seven, three girls and a boy. And Katie has just begun work as a hospital chaplain at Parkview. And so that's been a big shift in our life. And she's been able without real particular calling to lift listen and to care for people well who are hurting. And so that's the big thing for us right now in ministry. And yeah, Broadway Christian has been a great fit for me and for our family, and glad to see what God's doing there.

Geoff King: 3:23

Amen. Thank you, Ron. Yeah.

Anthony Payton: 3:24

And I'm Anthony Payton. I've been pastor at Come As You Are Church for 27 years now. I'm originally from Hattiesburg, Mississippi. I know neither one of you. But I I've been here almost 40 years I came here to go to school met Sandy at True Love Missionary Baptist Church. And almost 40 years later, I'm a Hoosier. Pastoring now as I said, 27 years to two kids, Zachary and Lydia and four grandchildren.

Geoff King: 3:56

Love it. Wow. Love that. You know, Mitch, I've got various histories with these guys, that I consider an honor and a privilege. So we're start with with Pastor Peyton start with Anthony because he's he's known of my people, before I've come along, so you know, he shares about being in Fort Wayne for 40 years, and I'm almost 40. So he's known my parents and my grandmother, before I came along. And so that's our connectivity and cares for my grandmother in loving ways him and Sandy do and I was friends with my parents growing up at true love. And so that's our connection. And so in this recent season, it's been great to spend time connecting with him and learning from him in school. Ryan and I met for three years we prayed with six other pastors when I was serving in the local church monthly. And so we meet at our churches and pray and I don't know about you, I kind of felt like for the fit the beginning, hey, we're going to spend an hour around this lunchtime and just really just pray and it turned into two hours, right, because when you're in when you're in this kindred connection with other guys who and other pastors that know what you know, experience, what you experience in our unique ways that we're experiencing it. You know, it turned into two hours, you're talking about our kids for like the first hour and the struggles the first hour, these funny things that first hour, and then it's like we should pray. Because the prayer encapsulates all these different things that we've shared. So I really cherish that time with the guys. It was season. It was a sweet season.

Mitch Kruse: 5:29

Can I ask you both a question? Yeah. All that time in prayer together, how did that affect your lives? Oh,

Geoff King: 5:38

I think for me, it just, you get the opportunity to truly see other people pray for you, and relate to you, even if they're not exactly like you. And so for me, it was like, I looked forward to it, because I knew that there were brothers that were holding my arms up and intercession and prayer, and that they were ones that could uniquely relate to me in our different settings and circumstances. And so that's how it impacted my life. I it was it was funny, because Kay Paul, and, and Ryan and I, and a couple of the other guys that you know, Matt and Josh, they, they were Sims too, I think Joe was the only one, like, our kids were the same age, as Ryan shares. And he, I have a 14 year old, I have a 13 year old, he's got a seven year old, I have a five year old. So it's like, we recognize that we're in similar life situations with our children as well. So it was just a great place for me to know that there was some relation there. But there was also some people that were that were really praying for you in real time that understood some of the things that you were going through and that you were pursuing as some as a minister of the gospel

Mitch Kruse: 6:48

How about you, Ryan, because you know, pastors pray a lot.But

Anthony Payton: 6:52

We should.

Mitch Kruse: 6:55

This was like a unique portion of your life to do this.

Ryan Cochran: 7:00

Yeah, I think some of what just said I would echo that, knowing that each month I had a place to go where I was going to be able to share, honestly, with other pastors who knew what was going on. And I didn't have to explain myself, I didn't have to give all sorts of qualifications about why I felt this way when I had this experience that they just knew, was really a gift to me. And then I think for me, I've had two of those pastors who I've continued in significant, intimate relationship with since then, that season came to an end for us as those group of pastors in our monthly time, but there's been two of them that I connect with every day, one of them and every week, another one, we're really connecting and continuing in relationship with each other. So

Geoff King: 7:50

yeah, that's a really good question. And I think that's a lot of encapsulate some of what we're going to talk about today with you all is the unique, you know, aspect of being a leader, being a pastoral leader. And for me, I think, I think you would agree with this, it's sometimes we put pastors in a box of how they lead and why they lead and how they should lead. And I see it, it's something so much more vast, because I've shared, I've chatted with Laurie Whitman about this, and we've agreed on this as she served in ministry at a church for 17 years. So I mean, it's pastors, you all are leading the folks that then go out into the world and work in the marketplace. And so if you're well, overall, you're you're able to serve these people that go and lead in the community, and then they have impacts in the community. And so it's this really unique thing, this mantle of charge and appointing that pastors have and so we want to, we want to talk about that today. And I think one of the first things that we want to, we want to chat about is, you know, how important is leadership from a pastoral sense, you know, how important is the role as pastoral leadership, not only in churches, but in our community? You know, today in our society today where some people might try to blockaded off where they are, there's more barriers to leading out in the community from as being a minister, how important is it in our community today?

Anthony Payton: 9:26

Leadership in my opinion, is in general is vital, you know, whether you serve in the local church or you serve as the head of a corporation, you know, so in a general sense, it is vital in a pastoral sense and society that is constantly drifting, and the use of biblical word away from God, it becomes even more vital. I think that the mantle that pastors have now in this particular setting in which we're living in is is as much about shepherding, as it is prophetic warning, you're getting away. Whether that is in the individual meetings that you have with different people, whether that is in the marketplace as Paul stood and Mark Morris heal, and preach to the there, or whether it's in premarital counseling, whatever setting that he's in, I think he also he shepherds, and he also has that mantle of prophetic anointing upon his life for such a time as this. And I think the challenge for us is to stay in that flow. When so many different voices are calling you in a different direction, or popularity is the order of the day, rather than that prophetic denouncement, of something that is going wrong. And whether it's in the body of Christ, in this society as all

Geoff King: 10:59

That's beautiful. How about you Ry? What do you

Ryan Cochran: 11:02

A lot of things come to mind. I think the first think? thing that comes up I think about the idea of leadership as it relates to pastor is that I hope that pastors are leading in a different way than what the world offers that we're that we're modeling a different way to lead.I often resist some of the the ways that leadership models from outside of the church outside of the church has been then imposed and expected of pastors as well. And so then not only do we carry the role of Pastor Shepherd and teacher, then we also are called to be, you know, manager, and CEO, and administrate and all those sorts of things. And all of those things are necessary and good. And they they're a part of the role of a pastor in 21st century America. But it's so easy to forget those first callings for what I feel called to do what I felt called to do, you know, in my teens, I felt called to be a pastor. It's easy to drift. And so I think that's one thing for me is to think, how do we model leadership in a way that's, that's different, that can be an encouragement and a challenge to the way that the world leads.

Geoff King: 12:21

So good.

Mitch Kruse: 12:22

Can you elaborate on how the two are different? What are Western culture superimposes in the marketplace versus what the Bible teaches?

Ryan Cochran: 12:31

Yeah, I think, what is what is our what our measurements? What are the things that we're aiming for? What are we going for? I think the certainly the best leaders in the marketplace, I hope, understand that they are helping to lead and uplift people, they're leading and serving human beings and want those human beings to be the best that they can be. And I think that we as pastors, that's kind of our first calling and maybe a leader in the marketplace as the pressure of the bottom line, as the pressure of all the sorts of market factors that they've got to worry about that, that I don't. And so I would hope that I would model a way of leadership that they could then take into their businesses that say that we're about people first and calling them to be the best worker, best human being that they're called to be.

Anthony Payton: 13:22

I was talking to a pastor yesterday, and we had a similar conversation. And he he's a great business man who was anointed in that area. I understand that. And so he shared with me, he said, You know, I have built buildings and built business. But I failed to build people. And I think that goes to the heart of what you're saying. Yeah, I think that as we we are in these roles. And you you kind of do a career, even though you full time in the pastorate. And he had done some great business things. And he and I applaud those things. But when it came to the discipling, which is principle of setting up a climate within the church, the pastor of discipling he didn't do that. And I think that today, the pastor is almost geared toward the gathering, than preparing people to go. Yeah, can I think of anything that COVID has taught us and it taught us many things that we major in gathering. And we didn't properly prepare people to go. And so when the return came, the exodus was still there. You know, people still have our back. Yeah, yeah.

Geoff King: 14:45

So, so good. So good as you hit on, you know, part of one of the things that was on my mind for conversation today is, you both articulated it so well, which is there are some unique things in the marketplace in regards to leadership, there are also some very unique and eternally important things as those in pastoral leadership that we cannot miss. And the beautiful thing about that is that there is a crossover for the ladder to the former, especially those who are believers who are leading in the marketplace, they can go back to those places, and then lay seed and water towards some eternal changes in their marketplace marketplaces. You know, I, I want to ask this question, because it happened in a conversation that I was having. More recently, where there was a there's an educator that said, one of my teachers is all in with kindness. And she's got her her her students wearing these kindness shirts, when they go to assemblies, they are teaching kindness. And in my mind, I'm going to Oh, that is a biblically rooted principle that is of the Spirit what, in what ways do Do you think that we can be a people that are instilling fruit of the Spirit in the way in which we lead? How can we do that more often, and perhaps were we missing the mark and teaching people how to be more patient and more kind and more loving, and, and all those things that are so important that we see in the day to day as we lead among ourselves?

Ryan Cochran: 16:32

I think one thing is making people aware, you're talking about the prophetic responsibility that we have, I think warning people about the ways that they are being shaped by the world of social media, but the world of media in general to be where we see a demonstration of the opposite of the fruit of the Spirit and the works of the flesh over and over and over and over again. And so to help people to see the ways that they're being shaped by that every single day, and to be aware of that, I think is really important for us right now as leaders to have our eyes open to that. And to, to name it for people. It's good.

Anthony Payton: 17:16

Yeah, I think one of the ways one of the pragmatic ways that we get there biblical ways that we get there, as you all articulated, and when you talked about getting together for three years in prayer, I don't think any significant change, about anything going on happens outside the context of relationship. I've always operated from Addis I learned from, from my days involved in Promise Keepers, it says, went like this 10% of people change when they hear the truth. 10% of people may not change, but 80% of people change within the context of relationships. And one of the things that we have failed, and is building relationships. Now, think about this, praying together for three years, built relationship. But prayer is essence is that posture of vulnerability, we go before God, we're vulnerable to him. And in that prayer. Now, if I'm praying with you, which we have, there should also be a level of vulnerability between the two of us. And out of that space, that genuine space comes genuine relationship. And so we change we begin to walk into one another one another's moccasins, if you will, and understand one another better, because we both have leaned into that place, that space of vulnerability. And I think that, you know, you said something yesterday when we were talking. I don't know exactly what you said. But you I think we've gotten so accustomed of proximity. But we really ain't in a relationship. Yeah, yeah. You know, we physically in proximity, but we're not in relationships, right. And so, we don't have that moral if you would, passionate, pragmatic position or space or energy, to say to the congregants, you need to see their side of it. When you need to be patient with them. You need to be a little bit more kind. Because we're not we're not in relationship. right now.

Geoff King: 19:23

So good. You know, I think about, you know, relationships pastor, and you're talking about, as we've chatted before about proximity is one thing, proximity of relationship is another. And I think about, again, the uniqueness of a pastoral role that you all have relationship with people in the community. I'm going to go just very small trail. You know this about me, it's, I think a lot of people scream and shout that oh, this about the community. The community needs this and people need this and they want this and they don't have any connection to the community. Their heart might be in the right place, but they don't really know people because they're not loving them up close. And so they really don't know the needs of the community yet, even though their heart might yearn for a healing and a wholeness in our community, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, a lot of the times pastors get to see the unique things that are happening in the community, for the mother that doesn't have anything for the father that is trying to get on his feet, to the widow, to the widower, you understand those things. So those who are struggling with mental health, mental wellness, as we've chatted about before Pastor, like, from your unique lens of the community, and we have people listening from other places, but in Fort Wayne, what does our community really need? What are some of the unique hurts, needs and challenges happening in our community? Because you have people in your congregation that have come to you and say, Pastor Ryan, I got this going on? And you know it? What are some of the unique things that you're hearing and sensing from the Lord? And then also just relationally, as you've been close to people?

Ryan Cochran: 21:09

I'd like to listen to you first

Anthony Payton: 21:10

Yeah, I, I, I've said to some other people, I've been in for way, nearly 40 years. And I've seen ebbs and flows, and a variety of settings and time. I don't think I've ever experienced a time like this. And this is what I mean. I think that we are pores, to make changes in this community and beyond the borders of this community, like never before. I see on a positive side of that. People intentionally going on and doing relationship and we've done that before. But I think that it's more of a vulnerability there. I think the handwriting on the wall, if you would, says to all of us, if we don't do it, now, we don't seize this moment, if we don't lean into the zeitgeist moment, we're gonna miss. And not only were we gonna miss it, but our children's children will miss this place, this space, and what God wants to do here. So the positive thing that I see is the relationship building aspect of it across all factors. The only time I would say there was anything remotely like it was back in the PK day, the Promise Keepers days. And were white pastels came from the northern side of town or west side of town, we met on John Street and progressive Baptist Church every Saturday, and prayed together into heaven, you know, move on earth, and the reconciliation tent meetings and John Perkins and all those things. So I'm, I'm, I am applauding that effort and the energy and the various organizations and ministries that are doing that. But at the same time, I think that that there's a bit of caution there as well, in this regard. I think there's, go back to what you said earlier, there's this great intentioned, great insight that says, Okay, we got to do something, we got to do this. I think this is it. I don't think it's taking much the duction homes, if you were to realize that we got a problem, you know, it's like riding a car and going over some bumps and realize you got a flat tire we have we got a problem. But I think we answered in the same time there's this relationship building, there is this tendency to move beyond those that have been there. Because they don't know what they're doing, quote, unquote, they, they they, if they knew what they was doing, if they had the capacity to do it, they would have done it. No, maybe there's other things that we need to know about why they haven't been able to do it or make a bigger impact as that. So I think that the collaboration piece of coming in saying okay, what is going on in the community? Do we have to reinvent the wheel? The circles group for us? You all been doing that kind of ministry for years, probably. History is rich, for reaching the community as a whole. We have had the opportunity to partner with him in doing this. And for the last six, eight months? I have watched the different people from Broadway. And the different people from CAYACC on a Monday develop relationship like never before. They wouldn't have done it without ministry. Right. You know, one of the things that makes soldiers so riveted and glued to one another, they serve together. They went to war together. We don't have that experience. We that is like, we don't understand that basic concept. So that's a long story. I'm sorry.

Ryan Cochran: 25:37

You asked a question about what pasture see the people need. And I'm trying to get some ideas in my head right now that what is the particular needs for Fort Wayne, if you've asked a question about what pasture See, I mean, we encounter people who have needs that would be the same here, as in Hattiesburg or LA have mental health issues and people just struggling to make ends meet and, you know, inflation and all that kind of thing. And so I think I'm trying to think about the question in light of love Fort Wayne, and one of the needs here. And there are some specific issues. cost of housing is what we're what we're finding a lot with are are in as much and in circles ministry and Broadway and that you are very well aware of and the rising costs and and the pressures that that's causing. But I think what comes to my mind right now, is that Fort Wayne, is it's kind of the last holdout of Christendom in America.

Anthony Payton: 26:43

Wow. Wow.

Ryan Cochran: 26:45

Like, yeah, there is a there's a positive and a negative to that there's a rich Christian heritage heritage in our city that manifests itself in lots of churches. And that also manifests itself in lots of leaders in businesses and organizations who help love Fort Wayne and Fort Wayne united, and these sorts of different things that come up that have business support or leadership support from believers. And I think that's really rare. I think that's really rare. In our country today, I think most cities would not pastors would not have even this kind of forum, to be able to speak in though, there's a lot of positives to that. I think the negatives, and maybe this is good to get to the need that people have is I think people are really afraid of losing that. There's a fear of losing that sort of influence that we have in culture. And there is a lot to be grieved when Christians lose that sort of influence. And there's lots of opportunities of getting to be the prophetic minority into a culture that needs to hear the gospel. And so there's this tension in me of what are the needs of Fort Wayne, as a pastor, we have incredible resources that we need to continue to take advantage of and to steward steward the better word to steward that well, that we have across our city government, business, Christian leaders who want their leadership in the city to matter for Christ. And I think that that is a unique gift that we have that we need to steward well. And I think we need to remind people that there are Christians that are flourishing in other parts of our country and other parts of the world that are not in that situation. And so if we lose some of that influence, yeah, the Lord has something for us there too. It's not something to fear, but something for us to respond to insightfulness, whatever circumstance we're in.

Geoff King: 28:49

I love that, too. It changes our posture. For me personally, as I process that, Ryan, it changes my personal posture that I might have of fear. What happens if I'm, we lose it Yeah. To it's alright, if we lose that there is still something that you've called us to go to. You've mandated us to Lord

Ryan Cochran: 29:11

And we can grieve that we can grieve what loss there may be there. And also, what is this thing that you have for me to do and what ways my now called to suffer to sacrifice for the gospel in a way that I didn't? We didn't have to, 20 years ago

Anthony Payton: 29:24

do we, do, is there a necessarily or do we have to necessarily experience loss?

Ryan Cochran: 29:36

I think if we continue to steward things, well, maybe not.

Anthony Payton: 29:39

Okay. And I'm curious, I mean, because that statement, speaks volumes, you know, I agree, it changes my paradigm. So it challenges my paradigm in terms of what what, how do you assess that we are the last bastion of Christianity?

Ryan Cochran: 30:00

So Perhaps a bold statement? Well, I think first of all, my experience in Vancouver, lived in Vancouver, British Columbia, West Coast City, very multicultural city. At that time, it was estimated that about 5% of the population would have called themselves believers. And that 3% On a Sunday morning, were at church on a Sunday. And that I would meet people in Vancouver, who I was getting my hair cut by a woman in her shoes from Vietnam. Her name was Hannah, H-A-A-N-A-H, and I just read the story of Hannah that morning. I said, Hey, just read a story of Hannah this morning from the Bible. In her question, what I was expecting her to ask, I don't know that story told me the story. What she said to me is, what is the Bible? Wow, she didn't know what the Bible was. And so like, I come there, and then I come to Fort Wayne, completely different situation, where most of the people in our city are familiar with the Christian story, and either are seeking to follow that are apathetic towards it or have rejected it. But they've read, they've heard no, they have knowledge of it, in some ways, their their life has been in some ways, a response to it. It's just not the case in a lot of places in our country. And I think that we are a little bit blind to that in Fort Wayne, that there's a lot of people who, in the United States, even that are fairly unfamiliar with our story. That's to be grieved, and there's a lot of opportunities there.

Mitch Kruse: 31:40

I asked a group of pastors one time, what's the greatest blessing of Fort Wayne, what's the greatest challenge of Fort Wayne? And they told me it was the same answer, that we're the city of churches, and the city churches, obviously, is a very good thing. We're Kingdom advancing, it permeates our culture, Christ permeates our culture. But the challenge part of that is that we tend to silo ourselves, city of churches plural. And I think part of that is what you said, Ryan, that it's the fear of losing, that we don't have an abundance mindset. Rather, we have a scarcity mindset. And I'm afraid I'm going to lose something rather than risking for God and trusting God to provide.

Geoff King: 32:27

It's good. It's good. Honest conversation. And I feel like it's impactful to those who are listening, I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say that it's encouraging my thought and challenging my thought, as well. And so, you know, just a little bit of time that we have left from a shift this just a little bit because we've asked you guys some tough some tough questions. Thank you for sharing your perspective on leadership and our cultural climate here in our city that we care about. And I'm sure if folks are listening from other places, some of them might say, yeah, that's similar to my place. And I love that as well. I want to look back at you all. Now we have our pillars that love Fort Wayne, which are collaborative in heart and I always say we collaborate, we want to collaborate in this city for under the mantle of what Unity truly is Jesus name. But we also want to collaborate because we don't want to compete, we want to complete what God can do to transform our city. And so our pillars are to love our schools, to love our families, to love our leaders to love through prayer and finally, to love our pastors. All that being said is your just your two men, your you don't represent all the pastors, but you have relationships with many of them. In what ways would you say pair pastors need love and care? What steps can lay people like us, Mitch and I take to ensure that we are loving you well, and caring for you? Well, I know that it doesn't take us just going oh, pastors need this without relationship as we've spoken about, but just from your perspective, what ways can pastors be cared for and loved well?

Anthony Payton: 34:14

I think one of the biggest challenges for pastors in that sphere which I have, journeying here of late is It's great. Thank you. the whole mental health field. The weight ministry. Coming out of a pandemic, the weight of ministry prior to a pandemic, the weight of ministry during the pandemic has weighed heavily upon leaders in general, with pastors in particular. I woke up about five o'clock in the morning, got about three start journaling about five after prayer about three days ago, four days ago. And I wrote in my journal, a statement that just fell in my heart that we need a safe place for pastors to go,

Ryan Cochran: 35:00

Yeah. I think to the question of what, how to particularly, particularly African American pastors, I wrote, to a safe place where they can go and share what they're going through emotionally, psychologically, etc. By 12 o'clock, I received the call from a dear young pastor saying that his wife had attempted suicide, and that she'd been struggling with depression for a long time. And I heard her in the background, when they say we're home, from the hospital, and I heard in the background crying and said, I won't call his name, I told him to share this with you, because I don't think you would judge me. I don't think you would judge me that I have to take medication for this. And I'm weeping, they're weeping. My wife and I leave and go to World Vision Conference in Phoenix. Two days later, and we go. There's a pastor there that we have a relationship, but we hadn't seen him, probably for years. Talk to him briefly over the phone. The wife slips my wife a note and said, Can we talk to y'all later? Sure. We make arrangements to talk. As she weeps. The depression is overwhelming. My husband is trying to do everything he can. But I can't shake this. So we pray, offer some practical help, as she talked to anyone. Is there any other First Lady's if she could talk to the pastor why she could talk to? And she said this. Everybody's bragging about what what's going on in the church. I don't feel like that to be honest. That, to me, is the challenge. And I think it's broader in the context of all pastors. I think it has nuances when it comes to the African American experience, because we are raised, you don't, you know, share family business and something going on, you gotta go talk to somebody, something must be wrong with you that kind of scenario. And I think when pastors lean into the moment and be able to say I'm getting help. It frees the people up in the congregation to say, Okay, this must be okay. I had a young pastor call me about two years ago and said, Man, how have you been able to deal with ministry? I just got started. I got a therapist. He said, "what?" I got a therapist, I go see, I talked to him, they don't go to my church. They don't live in this community. They don't look like me. It's a place I can be real. Yeah.They not reading my headline, you know? Yeah. And he said, Well, where are they? I said it, I gave him the number any call me back after he visits him and the best advice anyone ever gave me. For me, that's, that's where we are. That is, if we can. If we can undergird pastures in that area, and create that safe space. When they can be vulnerable, about the weight of ministry, where they don't have to show up in every meeting and be the hero of the city. Or some new great plan. And, and they can say, hey, you know, what if I don't get enough money, because doors don't close, or I haven't got a check in three months, and and I don't know how my wife and I gonna survive. We front. Because the role the position is so competitive. We make it? Yeah, yeah. care for pastors. I think the, the simple thing that comes to my mind is that I feel one of the times I feel most loved by by congregation is when somebody sees me, and by what I mean by that is, they recognize that maybe a sermon was hard for me to preach or they knew of some sort of circumstance or something that was happening in the background that they knew about, and that they reached out and acknowledged, that must have been hard for you. Thank you for the role you play, but that I'm seen for the struggle of being a pastor that that makes me feel really cared for. Yeah. Everybody's jobs hard. Like everybody has difficult things that they have to do. pastors have our own unique struggles. And so when, when I feel seen, I think is a way that people in our congregations can love us.

Geoff King: 39:57

So good. Whatchu think, Mitch? A

Mitch Kruse: 40:01

A lot of what I've heard, you guys say makes me think of the idea of confession, the ability to admit to agree with God about a shortcoming in my life. I co officiated a funeral with a mentor of mine whose background was Catholic. And I was actually in the hearse on the way to the grave site with the Monsignor. And the topic of confession came up. And he said, even as Catholics, many aren't doing it anymore. And here's what he said. They're walking around carrying that burden, and it's killing him inside. And that's what happens. When we don't feel free to say, Yeah, me too. Yeah. So yeah.

Geoff King: 40:50

Guys, thanks so much for joining us and just being real with us. From everything on your personal leadership leadership as a whole, which you're experiencing in your your walk of leadership, and just in our city, there's so much richness to that. And my prayer is that folks that have tuned in, no matter what their walk of life is, that they've been enriched by something that they've heard you've you've shared with us, so, so many deep things. I'm gonna give you 30 seconds, and I can laugh because as a as a pastor, I'm like talking to me. 30 seconds. That's three and a half minutes. You know, how goes a 30 seconds, really? Because, yeah, Mitch, Mitch is when I started to help hosts our our podcasts here and left Fort Wayne. I learned that we asked this question, and it's been a staple that we asked of, you know, if you could go back to your younger self, is it? It's a pretty common question. If you can go back to your younger self, however you want to 40 years ago, when you first moved to Fort Wayne, when you first transitioned whenever it was, what would you tell your younger self today as it pertains to leadership? Or anything in life that you know now?

Anthony Payton: 42:00

Be more relational?

Geoff King: 42:01

Be more relational. Love that.

Ryan Cochran: 42:11

I think it's a question I'm going to think about? Yeah, that's a good one.

Geoff King: 42:14

Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Cochran: 42:15

Yeah. Nothing's coming to mind immediately. So thank you for it'd be a good swap for journaling late. Yeah, I love that. I'll come back and let you know

Mitch Kruse: 42:22

They went with a combined 30 seconds

Geoff King: 42:29

That's a journal question. As a Crock Pot thinker. I'm like don't do that. I need more time? Well, we thank you for this time, guys. We do truly appreciate it. And we again, our hope is that if you've tuned in, that you've taken this this half an hour plus, to really be shaped in your leadership just by hearing realness from these two everyday leaders and from their context. And so until next time, I thank you for tuning in to the love fortwayne leadership podcast and we pray that you again have been sharpened in your leadership as you've watched him as you tuned in.

Mitch Kruse: 43:11

Thank you so much for joining us this month, we drop a new episode the first Monday of every month. Love Fort Wayne has some amazing episodes coming up. You don't want to miss a single one. So subscribe today, wherever you are listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please like, share and leave a review. We want to share your thoughts and comments with listeners on future episodes. Thanks again for joining us today. Join us next time as we hear from leaders that don't just lead but love our city.